Thank you for your kind words, John.

Vaughan and I were 'competing'against the clock. We were aiming for under 9 hours, but did not think we would manage it given the atrocious conditions. However, with a change into dry clothing at Woodsetts and wearing water/windproof tops, hats and gloves, we managed to ward off the chill and to keep going at a reasonable pace. As usual it was proper preparation, which made for a better time. Many people were not prepared and suffered the consequences.

The fact that I was 2nd lady was a massive bonus though! And we have already enjoyed the bottle of wine that I received as a prize!!

I remember someone saying about the 100 and the time they took that "They've paid for 48 hours, so they'll take 48 hours" !

Since all challenge events have maximum completion times they are, therefore, competitive - even if it is only you against the clock. And, just like the London Marathon, for 95% of the entrants it is the clock they are up against. And, perhaps, against their time on this event last year.

For me, this self-challenge gradually led me to increase my pace and look to different techniques for getting along. This has resulted in the rather awkward jog/shuffle that I seem to have settled in to! So, am I a runner or a walker? I'll join the TRA. If only, like the FRA, to support their existence and help sustain the sports I love so much.

Garfield

Oop`s of course we are not competitive,

just pleased you were not out in the rain for to long

Seriously though that was a splendid effort on your part.

Thanks Anne and congrats on being second lady finisher well done to you :-)

Everyone who finished Round Rotherham on Saturday is a winner!

Personally, I think the race/challenge issue is a poor excuse for not talking to the TRA (but remember they may not be interested in talking to us). There are 40-odd thousand runners, joggers and walkers in the London Marathon but the race is between a handful of runners at the front who are going as fast as they can. The rest of us do it for the challenge of finishing, but generally we are going as fast as we can. There are winners, but no losers.

How is that fundamentally different from a challenge event?

The Round Rotherham is a race, organised by a running club. The winner was home in 6hr 17mins (awesome running in horrid conditions), about 8hrs before I finished. The satisfaction I feel in finishing is in no way diminished by the fact that I was 8hrs behind the winner.

That's my view, and one that I'll put forward in the discussion I'm sure we will have at the next Committee meeting.

Thank you to David, Julie and Garfield, who have obviously read this thread and made a comment elsewhere (Censorship). It is heartening to see that others also agree that that there might be some recognised link between runners and walkers, and that runners' support of and contribution to the organisation are recognised. So ... how about it National Committee .... should we have an LDW&TRA or even just LDA? And what do TRA members and their committee think about it too?

There is also an interesting point raised by John in 'Events' about the Round Rotherham entries - mostly runners.

Thank you for your comments, Fiona, which I heartily agree with.

We enjoy LDWA events, precisely because they are not races and there are no prizes or trophies. You can go at your own pace, it really doesn't matter what time you do provided you have enjoyed yourself and it doesn't matter where you are in the results list. However, even in LDWA events, we have witnessed an element of competition even if it is only for yourself, e.g. trying to get a better time than last year in the same event.

Some of the events that the TRA support are 'proper' races, but some are not. Indeed, the event that I help to organise (A Coventry Way - 7th Sept 2007 - quick advert!) has no prizes or anything, yet the TRA will be including it in their league next year. And most of their events are advertised in Strider already.

I know that the organisers of the Montrail series have been mostly unsuccessful at incorporating LDWA events, apart from Rhayader Mountain Trail (and what an epic that was!!), because of the idea of 'racing'. However, I don't think that this affects the majority, increases the number of entrants (which can only be a good thing, given the problems that some events have had), and increases the profile, not only of the event, but also of the LDWA as a whole. And the TRA is not necessarily about 'racing' - it is about trail running and enjoying ourselves in the countryside and everything else that goes with it that all LDWA members recognise.

Sorry to ramble on - I guess I'm just passionate about escaping into the countryside as often as possible!

I think there is potential for some links, given the obvious overlap in our interests at the longer distances, and the growing numbers of trail runners doing our events. There is an issue regarding the difference between our challenges and the races that the TRA supports but I think that this might be worked around without compromising the ideals of either organisation.

Good Luck Anne

Yes, it's a difficult one, which is why I was seeking people's views. If I lived in an area with easier/quicker access to fells, then no doubt I would have continued to be a member of the FRA as well. I agree that a shorter event with lots of ascent can be just as challenging as a longer event in a different kind of way, but we have to weigh up travelling time with event time.

I think many people, like Madeleine, are unsure what trail events really are and the fact that there are a wide range, like LDWA events. The only event that I have done which was fully waymarked was High Peak 40. Some others have some helpful waymarking on tricky sections, eg Round Rotherham, but the vast majority that I have done require navigation skills. Many actually require more navigating than LDWA, because there is no route description and you have to use map and compass. Also there are often few entrants so the field spreads out quickly and you don't get a chance to follow anyone else.

I actually think that there is no difference between the nature of LDWA and TRA events apart from the differing emphasis on speed of travel for the majority taking part, mainly because of the joint use of public rights of way. I'm not really suggesting any formal links. I just thought that some LDWA groups or events might like to team up with the TRA to help with the event itself or to recruit entrants. The TRA needs to establish itself, fix its own direction and grow accordingly. I guess its committee, with help from members, will continue the journey.

I'm a member of the TRA as well as the TRA, mainly because I did the Ridgeway Challenge last year and as I wasn't a member I got membership included in the entry fee. And, like Anne, it gives me the discount on UKA races that I wouldn't have otherwise.

HAving just got the latest issue of Trailrunner through the door, I had some thoughts on similar lines to Anne. Trail running seems to be thriving but the TRA isn't with only 500+ members and a profile even lower than the LDWA's. Not sure how to take it forward though, or if we should.

Just looked up the TRA. The Trail races I've done are obviously not the same as these! So some of what I've said below is a load of tosh!!! Sorry. I've done shorter trail races in the Lakes (eg Garburn).

The FRA are affiliated to UKA - the FRA have just spent £3k on a ballot of it's members about whether to stay affiliated or not! (The overwhelming response was yes, but that's an aside). I'm a member of both FRA and LDWA but not TRA (in fact I don't think I've heard of it before). I have done some trail races and have enjoyed them, although the ones I've done have been very large fields compared to most FRA races. I think most FRA members see trail races as mamby pamby races - with the courses marked out. Having said that, most fell runners just follow the person in front and it's quite amusing when the clag comes down and they can't see anyone! Long live all the organisations! And I may even join them all...!

I find your comments interesting Anne and it is a shame that up to now there appears to be just the two of us discussing it, however no doubt given time others will air there views.

But to comment on the points you raised, all the Fell Races i enter are organised by clubs and many follow regular paths but with the bonus that if you know better(local Knowledge,Recce etc)then provided you visit checkpoints in order then you go where you will.

Whereas the TRA events i have entered it is inevitable that you follow one another as there is no other option but as you say the TRA is filling a Niche for folks that are finding a need to follow that path.

Maybe it would be useful for the TRA to offer Navigation instruction Weekends to Folks (as does the FRA) and then maybe try to organise an event or two with some navigation involved, that may the have the benefit of attracting other folk that like to navigate.

After all Both the FRA and the TRA are running Biased whereas the LDWA is Walking orientated and long may it remain so.

As to short fell runs i and most other runners/walkers find that a few miles with a several thousand feet of climb done at race pace can be just as demanding as a lot more miles and a few thousnad feet of climb plus they are all good training for the longer events.


Then there is the affiliation to UK athletics like Myself most of the FRA members that i Know are also members of a running club and as such are affiliated.

In my Honest opinion if there were to be any recognised links (which as i have already said i don`t think there should be) and given that the two are running biased i would have thought the FRA was the more obvious candidate for the TRA to woo.

I am a big Advocate of the Montrail series and i believe that is providing the only link that is needed between the LDWA ,FRA and TRA.

All the best
John

PS We used to be members of the FRA as well, but found that we were not gaining anything that we weren't getting from the LDWA and TRA. Also we're not keen on short events and the few long events we could enter anyway via other avenues.

One advantage of the TRA is that it's affiliated to UK Athletics, so you can get the discount on events like Round Rotherham. Especially as we're not members of any other club. Too busy doing events every weekend!

Thank you for your comments, John.

Both the LDWA and FRA are strong organisations, whereas the TRA is not ... yet. But I think that it fills a needy niche.

I think that the reason that the TRA events so far seem to follow fully or partly waymarked routes is that they are only using events organised by running clubs. This would be one of the reasons to become linked to some LDWA events: to bring in more of a navigation challenge for trail runners. And there are so many LDWA events: it gives greater choice and maybe TRA members could help out too. Having said that, of course, there is no reason why people cannot be members of both (like me!). I am really trying to give the TRA a higher profile and to encourage more people to join, recognising that all the organisations are complementary.

I too prefer the challenge of navigation. Indeed, there is no point in being able to run fast if you can't run fast in the right direction! We often do well in events purely because I can navigate. What really gets up my nose is when people who can't navigate follow and you can't shake them off - but that's for another thread!

By the way this fell runner usually walks up steep hills surounded by a lot of others doing the same.

Good luck
john

I personally think that there are more similarities between the FRA and the LDWA both of which i am a member.

As i understand it the TRA tend to use well defined and often marked and marshaled trails (well thats been my experience on the TRA events i have done), thus eliminating the need for navigational skills, which are often needed and indeed used on both LDWA And FRA events.

However i think that the fact that all 3 bodies welcome entrants from each other that then makes the need for any type of link between them unnecessary.

Basically we all share the same common interests and because of that we are probably aware of what bodies are out there that offer a variation on theme to us, and i feel that by retaining each groups individuality then a wider spectrum can be covered.




As to whether its worth making a long journey to fell races or not, given the areas in which most of them are held i think sometimes a short race, combined with a relaxing weekend with friends or family is sometimes better than a longer event that ties you up for an entire weekend, plus it can help you earn a few brownie points for when you want to be away for a long event.

As an active member of the TRA (Trail Runners Association) and an advocate of its aims, I was wondering what fellow members of the LDWA think about joining forces on at least a few events. (www.tra-uk.org)
Although the TRA has been around for a while, it does not seem particularly well-known. It organises one major event each year - The Ridgeway Challenge, i.e. the completion of all 85 miles of The Ridgeway over August Bank Holiday weekend (which can be walked as well as run!). It also has a limited range of other people's events in its 'series'. There is therefore a great deal more which could be done and I know that there are an awful lot of trail runners out there who are keen to take part in events and to promote the sport.

Most LDWA events now welcome runners and I believe that trail running has more in common with what the LDWA does than fell running, i.e. keeping mainly to public rights of way and usually utilising marathon and ultramarathon distances. Fell running events are generally short (and therefore not worth a long drive to get to) and more 'cross-country' than trail events. So I think that the FRA is very different.

Many LDWA members are trail runners and very much enjoy and value LDWA events. By teaming up with the TRA, we would encourage more members and probably more younger ones as well. Certainly there are a number of LDWA members who take part in the Montrail ultrarunning series and I know that others who take part are very interested in becoming members when they find out that they can run most LDWA events. Of course, trail runners often walk up hills and when they're knackered!

I'd be interested to know what people think so that I can report back to the TRA committee.