Not sure anybody would turn up if I promissed one of my "special routes" over the Rhinogs. Matt.

See what you mean - awesome. How about a Mid Wales social walk (or three or four)

Whoops, sorry, forgot to reply. It is here http://yiannistridimas.tripod.com/

Just scroll down and you will find the details. Awesome round with some very challenging navigation (like, 10 tops on the north section of the Rhinogs - great stuff!!). And heading South from the Arenigs .......... no comment.

Yiannis did it inside the 24 hour, very few could achieve that time over that terrain, some real wild country.

Take a very long weekend out and try it, a tough one. Matt.

Matt - what is the Merionydd round - where do I find the route

My digestive system seems to be very tolerant of whatever is thrown at it on a Hundred and I have generally been able to ignore nutrition problems. On the recent Marshals Hundred all went well until Ingleborough. It was a warm day and the pace was fast due to the good weather and easy terrain. I had noticed I was drinking a lot of water plus 2 or 3 cups of tea at each checkpoint.On the last steep climb my system suddenly registered empty and I could barely crawl onto the summit plateau. I recovered quickly but was fighting cramp all the way down. I arrived at Horton craving salt, the checkpointers searched around to find some, and this seemed to resolve the problem. Others seemed to have had a similar problem.
I presume isotonic drinks would have helped to avoid this problem in the first place. Hopefully there will be salted crisps, nuts,etc at the checkpoint on the main event.

The BMR is somewhat 'sparse' with en-route refreshments, but then it is not an ldwa event - we are a bit spoilt!!

I will now add malt loaf (+ lashings of butter and marmalade/marmite) to my list of essentials, following 2 days solo backpacking on the North section of the Meirionnydd Round. It pulled me back from a serious 'bonk'. A very tough and remote round for anyone interested. Matt.

We survived the BMR on a couple of glasses of water and an out of date pepperami found in our backpack...we miss interpreted the term 'refreshments will be provided..'

We're far more prepared now and take a lot of stuff with us on longer walks including those self heating coffees which really give you a kick, but the anti inflammatories are top of the list, followed by my blister scalpal set (from the pound shop!)

Matt, I was salivating over your menu for the BMR. I did it a couple of years ago (in foul weather) having LEFT ALL MY FOOD ON THE KITCHEN TABLE and completed on a few glasses of orange squash. Considered mugging fellow walkers for their sarnies but decided that this was against the spirit of the LDWA.

Beer is good for recovery,the malt and hops in the beer contain flavonoids which counter act cell damage, beer also contains B vitamins and chronium which helps convert carbs into energy, beer is mainly water and carbs both needed for post activity recovery, the bad side is that the dosage is only a pint for man half a pint for the ladies.

I used creatine the other day during a 50 miler and to my suprise had no aches and pains afterwards

Brenda Ryan's tea loaf - what a triumph. I cleared an entire plateful after the last Stansted Stagger. Can also endorse Merrian's sentiments about Phyllis Facer's date balls.

Garfield,
The flapjack sounds great. I'll put my order in now for around midnight tomorrow.

We don't understand why, but beer really works for me. If I had the nerve to start an event with beer instead of a cuppa, then I'd do that. I can cope with hills or mud much better after a beer and, for one who is famous for moaning, I'm much better company after a pint. Surrey Tops provided two pubs in the Good Beer Guide on the route, excellent. As well as the beer, the following suit me - tuna or marmite brown bread sarnies, water, ibuprofen, wine gums, tea, malt loaf, DFH's banana loaf, Brenda Ryan's tea loaf, Barbara Williams' fudge, Phyllis Facer's date balls, John Nickerson's weetabix cake, paracetamol, mint imperials, plain crisps and cola. Amazingly my tummy seems to cope but I've trained it well. I probably get tired, but don't notice it.

Well, I'm not that good at eating and drinking during events, but I usually find the more disciplined I am, the better I do. Trouble is, as you get tired and your blood sugar level falls, you feel less inclined to do something about it! The Downward Spiral (apologies to NIN fans).
I also find that eating lots in the few days before events also helps. You also need to drink a lot to release the energy in the food. And get lots of sleep.
I too take Ibuprofen later on 100's. I find that around 80 miles I get really really tired and only a power-nap of, say, 20 minutes does the trick. Then I'm usually fine until the end.

Helen and I are checkpointing at Kidhow Gate on the Marshall's 100 this weekend. H is making some flapjack which is pure rocket fuel !
Garfield

Still on the subject of scoffing, this is going to be my first 100 and I'm wondering about what to eat in the days leading up to it. I'm not a massive fan of pasta and don't tend to carboload before road marathons, but what is everyone's experience?

I used to avoid 'profen when running, but now age is catching up the joints hurt more and I'll pop one if needed. Usually the first thing I take when finishing - least I can drive home pain free!

Regrds tiredness after a long run, usually hits me a few days later. Initialy have aches and pains but feel fine, this later gives way to that 'empty feeling' in the legs - when climbing the stairs even.

I am now making a habit of eating more when out on any training runs/walks, even for a couple of hours I start scoffing something. Though I could go round fine without. I'm working on the principal that the more I get used to eating on the hoof, the easier it will be when it really matters. I ate pretty solidly round the BMR last weekend (gels, 13/4 litres of energy drink, mars, apricots, oat bar) more than normal, but I went under 51/2hr. and did the last section from the road crossing to finish in 1.25 still feeling strong. I will probably put on weight though !! Matt.

Some interesting points. As far as the swelling /aching is concerned I normally take Ibuprofen after about 40miles as it really gives you a new pair of legs and takes some of the discomfort away. I was also prescribed Mefanamic acid by my GP for another condition and discovered by accident this has the same effect as ibuprofen for me on walks. As far as the fatigue is concerned I find 3am the most difficult, but once the sun comes up again I can feel the waking effect. Caffeine seems to dehydrate me and can also worsen nausea in my case. I too find it really hard to eat enough at checkpoints, but only when I am dehydrated.

It works! Thanks, Matt. Just had a brief look, followed by a swift drawing in of breath - I could go a bit mad on this site. New belt pack, new head torch, hydration pack...

Here's a link to them. He mail order trades from home (near Brecon). I phoned him and we went down there to his house on a Saturday morning and he spent a couple of hours with us (coffee and biscuits) trying gear and advising. Really nice guy and good advice - not afraid to say if something he is selling is rubbish for what we wanted. Matt.

(url)http://www.likeys.com/(url)

Been trying to look at Likeys this morning, Matt, but they're moving to a new site (according to a useful post on the Marathon des Sables forum).

Have just been given a couple of tubes of Nuun (one with added caffeine), bought some gear from 'Likeys' (have a look on his site, some good stuff there and a really nice guy to deal with) and he threw a couple of tubes in. Not tried yet but would be interested to hear any feedback - they seem an excellent idea. They are NOT the same as energy drinks, they are electrolyte. Matt.

I get gut problems if I eat proper food at checkpoints so I exist on gels till the night section, when I've slowed down enough to deal with food, and a hot meal is very welcome. I also tried some electrolyte replacement tabs called NUUN from Sweat Shop during the Surrey Tops and they worked really well, both during the event and the day after. Has anyone else tried them?

I have to force myself to eat at the checkpoints at night. I feel slightly nauseous while I'm eating, but within an hour of being back on the trail, I'm really glad I?ve done so, for my energy levels perk up. I skipped breakfast on the Northumberland 100, and it was a fatal mistake (one of many on that walk). What works for me is to try to eat a little at every checkpoint. Joint stiffening: I find I stiffen up when I stop at the checkpoints, but loosen up after five minutes of being back on the trail.

Recovery: I eat and drink a lot for two days, and have no energy. I also get cramp in my hands until I take some salt.

On the injury side, I developed metatarsalgia on the Boot (swelling of the second toe joint in the ball of the foot). I applied the RICE technique someone recommended in another posting - or at least the Ice part of it - and it worked astonishingly well. After six or seven hours of sitting with my foot on a bag of frozen peas, the swelling and tenderness had practically disappeared.

http://www.valleyhealth.com/Health_Library/Article.asp?content_id=1330&p=

Problems only start for me as it gets dark and they are always of the gut variety. I have decided that it must be a form of motion sickness. I can't see far enough around me and reading the route description or map is like reading in the car. As a result I get very nauseous and find it very difficult to eat, so I have less and less energy and feel dreadful, often resulting in throwing up and/or diarrhoea. After which I'm ok, but my pace will have slowed to a crawl.
I've tried loads of different things - eating as much as possible in the day, ginger, mints, dioralyte etc. All work to a certain degree but I still seem to end up like a slug by the morning. Anyone got any ideas? I thought I would try motion sickness tablets (non-drowsy ones!)on the 100 - watch this space!!

Another problem is swelling up - I'm always significantly heavier after a long event and it takes a few days of peeing it out until I get back to normal. Otherwise I'm fine - just tired from lack of sleep, which also takes a few days to catch up.

I also find that I feel OK the day immediately after an overnighter, but tiredness/stiffness etc set in on the day after that. I've tried gentle stretching, but am not sure how much is just down to age etc?

I usually have a headache the day after - caffeine withdrawal symptoms from all the ProPlus I've taken to keep me going in the small hours. When I got back from the Surrey Tops, I ate my way through half a bag of McCains with mounds of pecorino (very salty) cheese grated over them, so my body was obviously craving carbs and salt. I don't have a problem with tiredness/aches and pains but the big toenail on my left foot is invariably ruined/detached and it takes a good month for it to right itself. Be interesting to see what the 100 does for it.

Just wondered what tactics fellow LDWA members use to get through overnighters. How many end up relying on medication (legal of course) to reduce swelling and those aching limbs? Also how do you recover and how long does it take? I must admit after the wellington I felt fantastic, but today (Tues) I am dog tired and have been starving hungry all day, so obviously the fatigue for me has a time lag. Do others find the same?

I seem to remember an article in Tracks(?) equating 1000m climb to 9 miles flat walking. This was probably not about ?time? but more likely ?energy expenditure?. Of course there are loads of variables which would make a nonsense of any equation. How fast you are walking & how fast your lungs will let you climb. How many sandbags you?re carrying (or what is your body-mass index) & how big are your boots. And then there?s miles and there?s are miles - billiard-smooth asphalt, deep Dorsetshire mud, an open moor of six-foot high Highland heather.
The equation may be fine for ?energy? & a ?leisurely? pace, so it is likely more applicable to longer distance times. (Note the 6.5h=F(26m, 3.5kft) 10.5h=F(37m, 7kft) works out to 3.7m=1000ft). If you?re talking ?time? & short distances (so you can give it more ?welly?) I?d reckon 1000m climb is probably nearer 4.5miles.

On a related theme, does anyone know of a factor that could be used to compare performance on differing events? If I take 6.5 hours to do a 26 miler which has 3500 ft ascent, how does this compare to a 37 miler, with 7000 ft ascent which took me 10.5 hours?

We have Naismith's rule as a starting point. But how to factor-in ascent? Might also be good to have a 'conditions variable'? So an easy day could have a factor 1 and a muddy, rainy, windy slog 5.

All this should produce a single value for that event, which could then be logged and charted against other events to give some indication of a performance trend.

One for Ken Falconer, perhaps ?

Garfield

Good, my best years are still to come. I'll be a world champion when I'm 90

Interesting article on age graded fitness here

http://www.runningforfitness.org/faq/agegrading.php


What is age grading?

Age grading is a way to adjust an athlete's performance according to age and gender. The age-grading tables were developed by the World Association of Veteran Athletes, the world governing body for track and field, long distance running and race walking for veteran athletes. The tables were first published in 1989.

The tables work by recording the world record performance for each age at each distance, for men and women. Where necessary, the world record performances are estimated.

For example, the world record for a 53 year old woman running a 10km is 35:01. So if a 53 year old woman finishes a 10km in 45:18, she has an age-graded performance of 77.3% (which is 35:01 divided by 45:18). The wide availability of age-grading tables has allowed older runners to compete on even terms with younger generations. In many running clubs today, the age-graded champion earns as much, if not more, recognition as the outright (non-age adjusted) winner of the event.

Paul Murgatroyd at Lincoln University is currently carrying out a study of people who take part in 'ultra' events. If anyone is interested in contributing to his study, I am sure that he would be delighted to hear from you. He has a fairly extensive questionnaire to complete and will be carrying out a battery of lab tests on people in the next few months. He is also intending to attend a number of events to carry out further tests. Exciting stuff!! His email address is pmurgatroyd@lincoln.ac.uk

It would be intersting to see how a cross section of starters and finishers in the 100 compared, if the sample was done correctly. Maybe one of our sports or medical uni's could be invited to do it.
David H

Just read your topic."BEYOND ME BROTHER"! At my age, i,m thankfull to use any oxygen at all!!! Good luck with the question.

An interesting article in the Independent recently about fitness. To get an objective comparison, fitness is measured by VO2 max: the maximum amount of oxygen one can consume while exercising, expressed in terms of millilitres of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. In 1996, a team at the University of Paris compared the VO2 max of groups of national-class cyclists, runners, swimmers and kayakers. Runners came out top with 74.9 ml/kg, cyclists with 72.4 ml/kg, swimmers with 59.6 ml/kg, kayakers with 53.8 ml/kg. However, the tests were done in winter, out of season for cyclists. Another study of top German cyclists gave an average VO2 max of 78 ml/kg. So top cyclists are fitter than top runners. But they are not top of the league. This goes to cross-country skiers: at top level they have a reported VO2 max score of over 90 ml/kg.

It would be interesting if they could develop a measure for endurance. Obviously VO2 max would be part of it, but would it be all?