Amen !

Her indoors and I have just recently completed the Salisbury 5-4-3-2-1 Event.The participants were in the majority runners who started about 90 minutes after the walkers.
What a good event this was! We enjoyed the countryside which was somewhat alien to Yorkshire folk but most of all we really enjoyed the banter and conversations with the runners/joggers and shufflers who were passing us in a steady stream all day.
Lets put this perennial whinge to bed once and for all.
We are all out to enjoy ourselves and if the LDWA is a vehicle for runners to experience the pleasures of the countryside , so be it !

Perhaps the 5 NC members who have commented are truly representative of the rest of the membership that they have said all that needs saying.

I don't see the downside of allowing runners (I have been known to run myself) and I know of several events that are effectively runners events now (Rombalds Stride might be one) and there is nothing wrong with that as it brings new blood into the LDWA.

As for the comment that the runners eat all the food and nothing is left for mid-pack walkers then that says more about the organisation of an event than the runners themselves. I certainly know that when I am running I want liquid and maybe a piece of flapjack or something similar, nothing more

There are 12 members on the NC, we have almost 6,000 members. I have read posts from 5 different members of the NC on this thread. By that same ratio we should have had 2,000+ posts from members

Three points here
1) We have moved off the original topic
2)There have been more postings on this thread this week, than the rest of the combined site for the last two weeks which is a good thing but again with an apparent lack of input from National committee members.
3)I have every intention of walking over Morecambe Bay this year and would not mind paying a bit over the normal guides price to take part in a walk by a charity, as it is a walk I want to do.
A local guide leads walks and charges £8 a walker. Our local paper has a request in it today from a National charity to do the same walk but they want each walker to raise £50 each!!!I know who will not be going with them.
David H

Merrian you got them from me when I picked them up from the National AGM! Email Catharine Gregory the publicity officer.

Probably not the right place for this, but I'm too lazy to put it somewhere else. I can't remember where I got my box of business cards. If anyone else wants some to hand out, where do they get them from please?

Nope, not me. I was in Wales.......and, no I don't want a job thanks.

Well done Merrian, do you want a job?

Were you in Hampshire this weekend by any chance? Three new members from the Portsmouth area this morning.

This doesn?t really relate to the title of the thread, but seems to follow on OK. Whenever I get chatting to people the subject of walking often comes up, which generally leads on to the LDWA. So now I carry a few LDWA business cards with me wherever I go, not just on events but on holiday, social walks, at work, in the supermarket, on a train, to the pub, theatre or concert. I handed out several on the C2C recently to those who wanted to make the most on their new fitness and try new challenges, and also to publicise the database of LD paths.

p.s. in case you?re wondering, a few weeks ago someone in Morrisons commented on my sock lines, they now have an LDWA card.

It is an interesting debate! I work for Oxfam (although I hasten to add not in events or fundraising) so I took part in both their 100ks this year as a genuine entrant. Perhaps I have been lucky but I was overwhelmed by the organisation that went into the Yorkshire Dales event. We were told in no uncertain terms that you needed to train and support was offered. The kit check pre-event was comprehensive to say the least. My team did a lot of the route reccies as we are only across in the lakes and all of our suggestions were taken on board and changes were made in response to any concerns we raised. The support at the start / finish and during the event was fantastic. I can't and wont speak for other charities and know nothing about their events. Will I walk for Oxfam again - yes. I want to do something I love for a charity I am passionate about (and I stress I dont do sponsorship forms!) will I do more 'proper events' yes - Where Eagles Fly, Autumn in Lakeland, C4C 50, 'The Fellsman' and I hope the 'Montane 100' next year. I have already joined my local group and have offered to man Checkpoints and make sandwiches and help in any way possible, so I think I am the kind of member you want to encourage. If you got 10% of charity walker to join in an active way through giving a leaflet out that has to be a good thing?

I entirely agree with you that charity events can be badly organised. Jane did one last year (not for charity, but because she wanted to do the walk which was local) this was a lesson in how not to put on an event, how nobody came to serious grief in bad weather was due to good luck not planning. There were many questions asked of the organisers afterwards - but it went ahead again this year with several hundred entries. As it will next year.
She did a night walk in the Brecon Beacons a couple of weeks ago, another first time charity event, though she wasn't raising money. The organiser clearly had no idea whatsoever. Filthy weather, at night on top of the Beacons and they came back in wet and cold in the early hours (2.30am) to find they couldn't even sit down and get a hot drink before driving home - and yes, food was advertised as available!!
But the fact remains they attract walkers new to the sport, even if for reasons we both disagree with. I think these are the places that should find LDWA membership and walk flyers at the start/finish. These walkers are the people who have never heard of the ldwa, and may be interested in joining and progressing further, only by making them aware of the organisation are they likely to join. Matt.

Hello to Laura Ruxton. Glad to see your comments here about how encouraging runners to attend challenge walks can generate new loyal members. I'm also really glad to see you enjoyed our Spring in Lakeland Event, and I am even more glad to see you are logging yourself as a Westmorland and North Lancs member.

So, are you coming out to play? We have really nice social walks in Westmorland and North Lancs and whilst I think I can remember you from the event we haven't seen much of you since, so just to say you are more than welcome to tag along with us anytime you are free. (advert over)

OK I put my hand up and admit that I broke several if not all of my own rules when I made my last posting.
1) Never do an instant post, put it into ?Word? first and leave it for a while, before you put it on the Webb
2) Never post when you have just finished a frustrating day.
3) Remember, others may read your post in a different way than you intended.
4) Provided it does not harm you, yours or the organisation you belong to, leave it alone.

Having said that, I still do not agree with organised charity walks etc etc and I would not like the LDWA as an organisation to get involved in them. By all means put on an event where the entrants pay the normal LDWA entrance fee and any extra funds after the event is paid for are given to a set cause but not with the commercial hype that goes with so many of these events. I think we will have all seen what this entails. The pre- printed sponsorship forms, on which you have to raise X£ before you are accepted ( recently a neighbour had to produce the cash stated on the form before she was allowed to start an event organised by a National charity) the T Shirts etc (who gets the most profit from these?)and we will all have seen those struggling along in agony to finish an event that they were never fit enough to start on in the first place.

Yes, one or two will enjoy the event and embrace challenge walking / running but the majority will all ready be either dedicated walkers etc Blackmailed in to doing something that in their heart of hearts they do not want to be involved in or they will be people who dread the sight of the charity organiser who they can not refuse and will never willingly enter another event.
Rant two over and the rain is pouring down outside, so no fell walking today
David H

I am sure that the ldwa membership could be far greater than it is, with a bit of effort and enthusiastic recruitment. Such as targeting charity walks, for example.
I do not do charity walks, never have and probably never will - it is not why I walk. But I appreciate that it is why many start walking (I know several from work) and then wish to progress further, having enjoyed the experience.
Unfortunately, attitudes and statements such as Davids do not help IMO, I believe all should be encouraged and welcomed and if 90% drop by the wayside, does it matter, it still leaves 10% potential ldwa members. Matt.

What I was suggesting was that engaging with people after they have done a charity walk could be a way to increase entrants to events and members to the LDWA not that everyone should go out and do charity walks. I think that however people come to love Long Distance events and walking they should be welcomed and encouraged, just because people complete a charity walk this surely does not make their membership less valid?
On your other point - walking for charity does mean raising sponsorship but most are blessed with the creativity to raise it in other ways than putting a sponsorship form in someones face? I tend to find that the culprits for that are going about 3 miles!

I have never walked for charity and hope I never will. When I do a walk it is because I want to do it not because I am being pesterd to do it, and when I have finished it I may or may not give a donation to a cause I belive in but these people who pester you with sponcership forms are the horror of horrors. A lot will spend a fortune on kit that will be used once and then thrown in to the cupboard and never see day light again. Better if they just donated the cost of this kit to what ever cause they support. Sorry for the rant but charity walkers / runners get right up my nose
David H

I read this forum with interest last night but have taken some time to think over a response. I am a new member of the LDWA a bit of an accidental member! I decided in December to take on Oxfams Trailtrekker 100k - I work for them and it was really more about supporting a new event than a love of long distance walking! As part of our training I completed some LDWA events (Spring in Lakeland was great!) and last weekend I completed Oxfams Trailwalker 100k in the South Downs. So i'm a convert! coming out of Trailtrekker many people have had a great time but are unsure how to develop their new hobby.
I also want to feel I can move forward and get better and already my slow amble of December is a combination of running on descents and walking on the flat and ascents. I think the runners bring a sense of excitement to the events (for the 5 seconds before they are out of sight). I also think that the LDWA could attract loads of new members through the long charity walks for many this is how they come in to contact with long distance walking, but I ony found you by mistake in a google search?

John, define a runner. (Garfield)

This may be an old debate, but it's certainly a current one too; as I trawl all the related LDWA www's trying to find news of whether or not entries for Wessex will go to a ballot. Having sent our entries weeks ago my Somerset namesake and I have been anxiously unhappy about our lack of guaranteed entry to the event, due to the high number of entries.
Having only been a member for a few years I hadn't come across this issue and had assumed that walkers would gain entry over runners. I feel this is a question of priority and we are after all a Walking Association. I would agree that all sides of this discussion have merit, but if the event doesnt take place because of the nature of entries(like the beloved Poppyline 50 2009) the debate is pointless anyway. I have noticed several events having limits of 2-300 this year, is this to keep them alive I wonder?
John :)

Forgot that Tony ;-)

Silly me

JohnK

John,
Dibbers have their place but they aren't too good at serving you with a cup of tea.
Tony

In reply o Tony`s last Post may i suggest (as i have done in the past) That a Dibber would ease the need for Marshalls out for long periods in remote Locations.

As to the rest i reckon my views are Known.

Stay Happy Folks

JohnK

I certainly didn?t intend to restart the old runner v walker argument when I started this thread. It?s a bit more subtle than that. The recent increase in runner numbers is tending to change the character of events in a couple of ways. Organisers have tended to simplify navigation to make it easier to run and avoid the risk of runners getting lost in tricky terrain, but I think that this is only part of a process that has been going on for a long time. Years ago route instructions were often little more than a series of grid references but entrants on events, runners and walkers, expect a comprehensive set of instructions these days.

I?m a middle of the pack walker, accustomed to finishing an event well up the field, but it?s a regular occurrence now to arrive at a near empty hall with most of the food gone ? and it?s not just because I?m getting slower! Arriving at checkpoints that have run out of food is also not rare ? it?s a myth that runners don?t eat the food. Perhaps some walkers are being put off entering events because of this? Should more events have a later start for runners?

All this is fairly academic. Runners are welcome on events and in any case there is little that could or should be done to restrict them. Perhaps the issue is rather different. Another feature of recent events is the large proportion of non-members, over half the entry in the case of the Hebden. (It just happens that most of the non-members are runners) No problem in that, you may say, they pay an extra fee to enter so why not. The problem is that a number of organisers are struggling to find enough people to run their events, particularly the longer ones which need checkpoints to be manned for a long period. There will be no Poppyline 50 this year for that very reason.

Part of the deal of being entertained, fed and watered on an event for such a small amount of money is that you give your time to help on occasion. Non-members are highly unlikely to do that. Not every active member does either, and a good New Year resolution would be to help out on at least one event this year, as suggested elsewhere on the forum.

Last weekend?s That?s Lyth was oversubscribed and about 50 entries were returned. It would have been nice for just one or two of these to have offered to help, but not one did. Some of the regular helpers were unavailable for various reasons and which made it very hard work for the checkpointers. So whether you run, walk or stagger, everyone is welcome on an LDWA event, but lend a hand occasionally too.

As a runner who started as a walker, can I add a comment? At the low cost that the LDWA charges for entry, I don't think runners should get special treatment, e.g. route marking. It is quite possible to learn to read route descriptions on the run - as with any new skill, it just takes time. Having done an event recently with a 'first-timer' I would say that the main problem is having to work from a route description at all - but that's a problem experienced by all first-timers, whether walkers, runners or something in between. I think it's great that events are usually open to all but I don't think that you should have to change the way the LDWA works. The LDWA call their events 'challenges' so don't make it too easy - there are plenty of running events available for those who want a straightforward run route.

Hear-hear, well said Jeremy.

I am always amazed when this 'thorny subject is even raised. I walk and i run , sometimes i do both.
I respect walkers when passing and likewise when walking, i step aside to let a runner pass. Surely it's all about tolerance and encouraging and encompassing all. It is better to seek similarities than differences.

Ann,
It's possible that you were timed out if you spent a long time writing a post - it has happened to me in the past. A solution is to write a long item as a Word document, then copy/cut and paste it into the New Post box.
I thought we had solved this by extending the time out period. I will check with MKH to find out the position.

Oh, it worked. Wrote a lengthy reply to another thread and it didn't work .... twice. So had given up.

Anyway, as far as advertising events goes. You could try local outdoors shops - produce a jolly poster and leave them with some entry forms.
Works for A Coventry Way, which (by the way) is on Sunday 5th April and you can enter by post or via the website www.acoventryway.org or via runners world and we cater for all speeds - you can start anytime between 6 am and 10 am. And I do all the food - guaranteed to be yummy!

just testing

Check out the praise being heaped on the LDWA and the organisers of the Hebden on the FRA website.

Why is it that runners appear to be so much more Ebullient when it come to expressing there opinions, than walkers.

Great Advertising for the LDWA though

I got a good response (over a dozen enquiries/entries) for a challenge event from non-LDWA walkers by putting a poster & contact details in 'Wilfs' cafe at Staveley, as this is frequented by walkers & cyclists and has a suitable notice board. I'm sure there must be other watering holes popular with experienced walkers?

Yes - I tried to promote our Shap Event in the Ramblers magazine 2-3 years ago. They didn't want to know!

Has anyone tried promoting events through the Ramblers' Association?

[Helen Southall]

I have no problems with runners on events; on a good day I even manage a bit of run myself.

Rather than bemoaning the increase in the number of runners, what ideas do people have for increasing the number walkers on our events? As an event organiser I promote 'my' events on Runners World, post on their forums and email enquirers, to try and convince them that they won't get lost, and come and give us a go. But where do I go to attract new walkers?

Apart from a small group of walkers who don't run at all,and I include myself in this category,from my experience of challenge events most entrants do a combination of running or walking.Some are runners who get tired and some are walkers who are determined to do the best times they can and jog whenever they have any spare energy.The few of us at the back really don't care who is categorised as a runner and who isn't.We are out to have a good days walk.If we have a preference it is for runners and walkers to start at the same time,so that those keen on doing fast times can disappear into the distance leaving the slow ones like myself to enjoy the day.It is not an issue though if runners starting later wish to pass us.Surely the purpose of the day is to reduce stress,not to get agitated about fellow eventers.
Bear in mind that a lot of events would not take place without sufficient entrants and to alienate any sector of entrants, either fast or slow,would deplete the entry,and perhaps lead to abandonment.
On the question of late entry by walkers,this is a problem for event organisers and it is very good to see some events in Strider being highlighted as 'Full'.Perhaps this will lead to earlier entries.I think what may have greater effect is if the 'on the day' entry is significantly more than pre-entry and make any entrant pay the 'on the day' entry if not paid at least 5 days beforehand.Dare I say it but I feel there may be a section of entrants who are 'fair weather' walkers who wait to see weather forecast before committing to entry.
Catering is a nightmare to event organisers if there is a late rush and being one of the slow walkers I have experienced several times situations where checkpoints have almost run out of refreshments due to greater than expected demand - not the sort of situation that encourages me to return.After all,the organisers knew I was coming in advance!

Bearing in mind that all this started with Tony quoting the statistics for The Hebden may I say that all are welcome on our event whether they run or walk, forwards, backwards or on their hands or any other way they care to do it. I added my two penn'orth earlier because a comparison between entries from runners and walkers showed how much more organised runners were in getting in their entries and how disappointed we were that walkers were not showing the same enthusiasm. I put a lot of this down to the fact that runners are used to online entering. So come on LDWA can we have our own system and hopefully more LDWA walkers will enter sooner. It seems that the slower you go the slower you put your entry in.

But when is a runner a runner? I can't believe we're having this debate again!
I start events at as quick a pace as I can, definitely what could be called "running". Then, slowly but surely, I go slower, to a jog, to a spirited walk and - depending upon distance - a walk. I really enjoy this approach and am endlessly grateful to event organisers who allow for this. I've never felt any animosity, or been made to feel unwelcome. The recent 6 Dales Circuit is a classic example of a perfect mix and great atmosphere - and there are many others. There is, perhaps, a problem with the W in LDWA but I've never experienced it for real. (Garfield)

Yet another suspect reporting for duty ha ha - well at least its not waterproof trousers this time. I too am both a walker and runner. I started off as a pure walker, then took up jogging and joined my local running club (Peel Road runners) as I used to huff and puff up hills and although walking keeps you fit I wanted more of a cardio vascular work out.

When I was a pure walker, I used to resent the runners coming up behind me (they always seem to start later) and it used to irritate me having to step aside to let them past etc, especially when there was a line of 20 of them.... When I started running LDWA events as my fitness improved, the boot was well and truly on the other foot, and had the frustrations of coming up behind slower walkers walking 2 or 3 abreast on a path who seemed to be oblivious to me behind them, although I always shout a cheery thankyou when they finally step aside.

The only problem I have is that I am too slow to call myself a pure runner, I do a very slow jog of around 5mph so tend to start with the walkers (checkpoint times allowing) but have had some sarcastic comments such as 'the runners are meant to start later' as I go past the walkers at the start. What am I meant to do?

I am a great believer that if events are to be well supported and survive, they need to be as enclusive as possible, and it is a shame if some events exclude entants jsut because they complete it rather quicker than others would like!

Nicholas; Don?t get yourself tied up with words or bury your head in the sand. Hate can have an enormous range of meaning and feeling. Just listen to any football crowd and you will hear it used like God bless you in a church but it doesn?t really mean any thing, it is just an expression and is used in the same manner by some of our members.
However in the past there was a strong feeling of resentment towards runners in the LDWA and some events specifically banned them but I think the majority now accept that we would be a poorer organisation with out them.
Having said that; when you are shattered at 02:00 and get overtaken by some one of your own age or older jogging along, as if they have just started, it is difficult not to reach for a big mucky clod of turf or utter a truly un printable and certainly un charitable reply to their cheery ?Good Morning? but at the next event and you are check pointing you still welcome, that person with open arms in the spirit of most of the LDWA.

Very well said John, but do you know what, I don't think there is really an issue. I don't think any group really hates any other group because of their (relative) speed. Emotions that DO exist for sure are:

Gratefulness for the amazing choice of LDWA events that allows us to enjoy our passion at whatever speed we choose.

Gratefulness for the new young lifeblood that is joining the LDWA and enjoying what it has to offer.

Admiration of speed (first one back) or endurance (on their feet through two nights of an LDWA 100).

Healthy admiration will encourage you to give of your best, WITHIN YOUR OWN ABILITIES, because we all know that not everybody is equal.

Admiration may border on envy of those who can do what you cannot.

Envy may border on jealousy?

Jealousy may border on bitterness??

It's not much further to the 'H' word, but I don't believe it really goes that far; it must surely stop at least two stages up. However it does get the emotions going to make a good conversation point, doesn't it?

Another usual suspect reporting for duty.

Jackie and myself are members of the LDWA for all the same reasons as Matt and Jane.
I love running some of the events equally as much as i like walking others with Jackie.

As to treating the LDWA as a source of subsidised training runs it is a fact that for my part when running in an event i pass through a check point with the minimum of delay, usually pausing just long enough to have my tally clipped or whatever and seldom partaking of what is on offer before resuming my pace and i think this is true of many runners, i do however usually eat what is on offer at the finish but that is no more than can be expected at many fell races, and again i think the same goe`s for many other runners.

To be Honest it seems to me that runners are the young blood that will be the future of the LDWA as has been said in the past the LDWA needs new young blood, well they are arriving but not suprisingly they are young,busy, fit, and looking to push there boundaries.

Which as far as i can tell is the what the LDWA is and always will be about particulary on the challenge events pushing boudaries.

I think the LDWA should be proud of the fact that people that can cover distances such as the West Highland Way in a little over 17 hours, find the LDWA events challenging enough for them to enter and enjoy them and the fact that they represent our country adds credence to the benefits of entering LDWA events.

One thing i have noticed is the use of the word HATE when mentioning runners, this seems to be a rather harsh word to use agaisnt somebody that shares identical interests (being outdoors and challenging oneself) but just perambulates quicker,HATE is not really a word that is conducive to harmonious relationships in my opinion and when used on an open forum can have a damaging effect on the body that the Forum represents
Also i have yet to hear any whinging from runners whose club allows walkers to partake of there events they seem to embrace the walkers and give them an early start (as do enlightened LDWA events, that encourage runners), and the runners like the challenge of picking of the walkers (many of whom are faster than me running)giving them encouragement as they pass, ROUND ROTHERAM is a perfect example of runners and walkers (many of them LDWA members) in perfect harmony.
Read any of the running Forums and you will see nothing but Praise for the LDWA and there events when the topic arises, and it`s a shame that it appears not to be the same when the cross over is made to the LDWA FORUM not good PR in my opinion.

Tony also says he raised this old chestnut again because the forum has been quiet, well should we be surprised when the same old issues are trawled over time and again, as has been said in the past the forum needs light-hearted, free-thinking, tongue in cheek humor,open minded discussion from folk ready to accept change and move on and forward,

Best shut up now but i will say that like many of my friends i am proud to be a member of the LDWA and a running club and love rubbing shoulders with fellow members of both and who knows one day this runner may just to finish before all the walkers (how do they do that?).








There is room for all surely

All the best
JohnK

Never been a suspect. I have always been guilty or so "She who must be obeyed" tells me.
Having recently been out on few walks that are not LDWA. I have been found walkers who tell me they hate people who run on walks (walk faster than 2.2 mph)lead road walks (they were quiet one's), do not stop at every cafe or pub (if I did I would also have to stop at every other tree) etc etc and I suspect that the same people or their siblings can be found in the LDWA.
David H

It's quite true that the runner/walker issue has been argued for as long as the LDWA has existed. There is a paragraph on the subject in Alan Blatchford's very first editorial in Newsletter No 1 from 1972(take a look at the South Wales group website for some fascinating reading).

There can surely be few members left who object to runners on events but the big increase in the proportion of runners is a relatively recent phenomenon. We have to move with the times but I hope it does not change the general character of our events. Perhaps it is mainly a seasonal thing as Matt suggests.

Anyway, I only raised this subject because the forum has been rather dead recently - at least it has provoked a reaction, if only from the usual suspects!

"....some will always hate them on events...." Why would that be, I wonder? Is it REALLY true? I find them to be generally inoffensive, in fact quite friendly. They don't cost much to feed because they can't run and scoff at the same time, and most have disappeared by the time most of the walkers have finished.

By the way, I started off as a walker.

This subject has been discussed many times before, I guess it is just a personal viewpoint on whether you welcome runners or not to your event?

Traditionally runners use the winter months for longer distance/stamina training, so I think the ldwa events are possibly more popular through the winter as relaxed training runs for individual or groups of runners. Come the spring, and the longer races return and numbers will drop off - unless you are a running 'event' as well. Personally I'm all for encouraging runners, but then I'm a runner who only joined the ldwa because I enjoyed running their events, and Jane is also a member because I joined, because I'm a runner etc. Matt.

It is too early yet to draw any final conclusions about what The Hebden is turnig into. Most walkers, including myself, enter events a few days before an event so we are hoping for an influx in the last few weeks. The event was designed with walkers in mind but there is no doubt that the number of runners entering is beginning to influence how we run the event. For instance, for the first time, we shall waymark the new parts of the route because runners just cannot follow our route description on the move.I would not have countenanced this in the first two years but we have to try and look after the majority as most of them are paying an extra pound. Hope to have plenty of Striders at the start which may induce a few to join the LDWA. It is a bit disappointing that many of our regular walking friends have not entered yet so we shall be doubling our efforts on next weekends event run by the Irregulars on which there will be mainly walkers.

We have had this discussion several times and it has never reached a conclusion. It just divides us. so let us drop it and accept that some will allways hate them on events but there are events that if it was not for the runners they could not take place. So they are welcomed with open arms and how many of the national committe started off as runners? and maybe still are, at heart. Last but not least let's not forget todays runner is tomorrows walker.
David H
Just finished slithering over twenty miles of iced up tracks and minor roads between the A69 and the Roman Wall

Of 188 entries for the Hebden so far, 103 (55%) are runners. That's Lyth will no doubt show a similar picture. Does the influx of runners on LDWA events help ensure that our events remain successful or are organisers putting in a lot of work to provide runners with subsidised training runs? Discuss.